[00:00:00] PHOEBE MELLINGER: There’s no test pass here. I’m not reading for academic purposes any longer, so it’s okay.

ANNE BOGEL: And you’re glad about that.

PHOEBE: I am.

ANNE: It’s a good thing for your reading life.

PHOEBE: I’m so glad to just be reading for enjoyment and not for a paper or a test, for sure.

ANNE: Hey readers, I’m Anne Bogel and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that’s dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don’t get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we’ll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

[00:00:52] Today’s guest has a dilemma I’ve heard from so many readers: what do I do when my reading tastes change? And how can I define those tastes in the first place? Philadelphia dweller and avid book thrifter, Phoebe Mellinger, wrote into us here at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/guest, where you can submit to be on the show, because she’s had pretty consistent reading tastes for her whole life, until last year when she noticed that her taste suddenly and vastly changed, and her go-to genres were suddenly leaving her feeling kind of bored and really burnt out.

Reading is Phoebe’s primary hobby, so she was desperate to find something new to her that delivered that same sense of readerly enjoyment her erstwhile go-to genres once had. Phoebe embarked on a year of discovery, and her dabbling into new genres led her first two weird girl books, and then to speculative and horror novels, then literary fiction.

But she submitted to be on the show because she’s not really sure where to go from here. She’s getting a better feel for what she enjoys, yet has picked up quite a few books that aren’t her cup of tea because, well, she says sometimes it feels like enthusiastic readers make everything sound good.

[00:01:57] She’s interested in trying so many kinds of books but feels it’s become hard to discern the difference between what sounds good and what may actually be a good fit for her.

Oh, and one more thing. Phoebe owns 200 books, thanks largely to all that book thrifting, and she would really love it if my recommendations to her today could be drawn from those titles. Thankfully, she sent me a spreadsheet of those books to peruse, so I can do exactly that today.

Let’s get to it.

Phoebe, welcome to the show.

PHOEBE: Thank you so much, Anne. I’m so excited to be here.

ANNE: Oh, me too. Our whole team was so excited when we saw your submission. I’m so excited to dig into the questions you raised today. But first, tell us about yourself. We want to give our readers a glimpse of who you are.

PHOEBE: So I am 31. I live in South Philadelphia, in the city proper, with my husband and our dog, Max. He’s a German shepherd.

[00:02:50] I work in techs. I work remotely here in Philly, but my company’s based in California. I work with different colleges and institutions across the country, which is kind of cool. So it spans technology, but then also higher education, which is what my background is in.

I travel a lot for work, and so reading is always something that I have with me. But when I’m not reading, I do… I teach bar here in Philly at a local studio. I have a really great community that I teach ballet bar, the studio fitness classes. I love helping clients discover new workouts and chatting with them about their lives.

And then when I’m not doing that, I also have been cooking a lot of sourdough lately. I think I’m four years late to the trend, but I have been in my sourdough era the last few months, and I have really loved it. I bake bread almost weekly. It’s a lot of bread for two people, but luckily there’s a community pantry nearby that I can donate to because it’s a lot of loaves.

[00:03:48] ANNE: I don’t think you can ever be late to the sourdough trend. My mom made sourdough when I was growing up in the 80s. We’re just joining a long tradition. Is it weird that we’re talking about sourdough in a reading podcast?

PHOEBE: Maybe, but they kind of go in hand. They’re like calming activities, right? Bread, reading, books, you know.

ANNE: They are. And I feel like we are whole people, and there’s not a hard division between our reading life and the rest of our life.

PHOEBE: Yes, exactly.

ANNE: Okay. Even though I’m asking you about it separately, tell us about your reading life.

PHOEBE: Yeah. So, I mean, reading is a big part of my life. I have been a lifelong, voracious reader. I started reading really young, thanks to my mom, who is also quite a reader. And I advanced really early into some longer books. I remember trying to read Lord of the Rings in elementary school or late elementary, early middle school. Had a copy of Gone with the Wind, if that gives you an idea of where I was going. And I’ve always loved it.

[00:04:47] It slowed down a little bit in high school and college. But after grad school, I started to have time for reading again and really dive back into it. And then it took off during the pandemic. Like I think it did for so many people.

Honestly, the last few years, my reading tastes have changed. So when I was younger, I read a lot of historical fiction. I liked books about the Tudor era and things like that. And then as I got back into reading as an adult, I started up with thrillers. They were just fun, easy reads to kind of keep you really engrossed.

And then I branched out into romanticy, as I think a lot of people do right now. So I did read ACOTAR, A Court of Thorns and Roses, and all of the kind of Sarah J. Maas verse. But found myself, you know, in the last year, looking for something different. I feel like in 2024, I was in a huge reading slump, trying to finish a thousand-page romanticy book. It took me months, which is really unusual for me. I just didn’t want to finish it.

I was burnt out and wasn’t really called to any of the books that I usually would. There weren’t any thrillers that really sounded good to me. It seems like I just didn’t want to go in the genre direction. Historical fiction didn’t seem to appeal. And so I was like, “I have to find something because reading is my hobby. And if I don’t have that, I don’t know what I’m going to do.”

[00:06:06] And so I found myself on BookTok and discovered many recommendations. But something that has kind of stuck with me is this weird girl books. And I’m making air quotes right now. I saw a lot about like Bunny by Mona Awad or things like that, where it’s like, it’s so out there that you have to be all in. And given all that was kind of happening in the world and things that continue to change, it’s nice to be so immersed in something that is so unrealistic or kind of crazy sometimes.

From there, you know, I currently am enjoying a lot of different genres. I’ve been enjoying literary fiction and speculative fiction. I read a lot of horror last year, which was really unusual for me, but found myself really liking it. And I’m kind of at a place where I’m enjoying a lot of books that can speak to the deeper meaning of life in the human condition and a lot about emotions and sometimes the things that we all know or experience but don’t always talk about.

[00:06:59] I’m really drawn to, you know, authors and books that describe those feelings in their writing. So yeah, that’s kind of where I’m at. It’s been a bit of a journey, but I’m pleased with the types of books that I’m reading now. I feel like my reading is a lot more diverse than it used to be.

ANNE: Ooh, okay. I have questions. I imagine we may be coming back to talk about your reading tastes changing and what was going on there. Do you have theories?

PHOEBE: I don’t know. I do think in the pandemic, kind of like I remember to 2020, I read so many books. I think it was just the constant need to be distracted, which is where I was really into the thrillers because you fly through them, but they are, you know, kind of intense. And you just kind of like go through thriller after thriller. There’s always a twist.

And then I think last year, it really was just like, I cannot read romanticy anymore. I had really burnt myself out. There weren’t any that sounded interesting. It just felt kind of all the same and kind of mundane to me. And so I wanted to just go in a complete opposite direction. Like what is something that I have never really read before?

[00:08:08] I started to kind of want to learn about what literary fiction means. I was like, I want to have a more thoughtful reading experience, I guess I would say, and not just kind of reading like the classic genre fiction that everyone is reading. Not that that matters. I’m not better than anyone else, but that’s kind of where my mind went.

I actually remember it was April of 2024, and I was doing a little reading retreat with two of my best friends. And we went to McKay’s in Knoxville, Tennessee, which are the best used bookstores. If anyone’s ever in Knoxville, you must go. And I found The Pisces by Melissa Broder, and it was like this short, super weird, crazy book. And I loved it. I read it in like a day and I was like, “I’m in.” And it’s kind of just branched out from there.

ANNE: Phoebe, something that jumped out to me from your submission is you want to figure out more about your reading taste. Like what do you like, and why? And what does it mean for your next choices? So we will be exploring those questions further. And we’re going to do so through the lens of what you love and what you don’t. Are you ready to talk about the books that you brought with you today?

[00:09:09] PHOEBE: I am. I’m excited.

ANNE: You know how this works. You’re going to tell me three books you love, one book you don’t, and what you’ve been reading lately, and we will talk about the picture it paints of your reading life. Phoebe, what’s the first book you love?

PHOEBE: So I have to say before I dive in, this was really hard. When I was thinking about my submission, I was like, “I don’t want to cheat.” But I have some 2024 faves, but I also have some all-time faves. They kind of go together. There are a few things. I’ll start with my 2024 favorites but I may have a couple others that I sneak in.

ANNE: Love it.

PHOEBE: My first 2024 favorite is The God of the Woods by Liz Moore. I know I’m not alone in that, but I really, really adored that book. It was unlike anything I’ve ever read. I wasn’t sure, you know? I had said I don’t want to go back into thrillers, but I had heard literary mystery, and I was like, “Well, I don’t know what that means but I like the sound of it.”

[00:10:08] And sure enough, it was everything that I loved. You know, some people said it was slow-paced, but I flew through it. I loved that it was historical but in the 70s. So it wasn’t too far back or anything like that. I think, in addition to the mystery that made it really compelling, it also spoke to like just the intricacies of being a person, right? Everyone has their kind of demons that they’re working through. Everyone has their own journey. What is it like to lose a child or to lose a sibling, to have a lot of pressure placed on you? I just think that there was so much additional commentary on being a human, besides this also great mystery.

I will say sometimes I guess the ending of the book, I did not see that one coming. I was thoroughly surprised. Literally, I remember I closed the book and looked at my husband and was like, “I loved that. Like loved it.” It was just instantly I knew it was a favorite. So I knew I had to bring it here today to talk to you about it.

[00:11:05] ANNE: Oh, that’s such a great feeling to have about a book. Phoebe, what’s the second book you love in 2024?

PHOEBE: Remarkably Bright Creatures by Shelby Van Pelt. This was not new in 2024. It was just new to me. What’s funny is that, you know, as I was at this kind of reader retreat with my best friends, they both read Remarkably Bright Creatures and I was stuck slogging through my thousand-page book.

But I finally picked it up a few months later, towards the October, and I did a combination of reading and listening to it. And when I tell you I was like fully in public on a plane and then in an airport sobbing. Like I have photo evidence. I was crying so hard because the book was so beautiful. I didn’t know what to expect. I was kind of like a talking octopus like, “Okay, sure. I’m sure it’s cute.” And it ended up just being so thoughtful.

Again, I love the family dynamics and the self-discovery and just this like, you know, believing in kind of a greater good of like, we’re all connected. I did love the little bit of magical realism. I do find that I like that in the book.

[00:12:14] It obviously helps that Marcellus was a cute talking octopus. But I just thought it was really well done and really unique, but also had some of those classic elements that I love in a book. Like I said, exploring just how you feel about yourself and how you relate to other people and all of that. So truly, I pick myself every time I think about how long I waited to read that book, because it was so incredible.

ANNE: I’m glad it landed for you. I need to give a PSA on this book to my past self and anyone who really needs to know this, because I can’t believe I missed it on the audiobook. But I listened to the audiobook. I really enjoyed it in that format. And it was only in the past like six weeks that I put together that Michael Urie of Shrinking and Younger — I love him as an actor — is the voice of Marcellus the octopus in that book. I don’t know why I didn’t pick up on this when I was listening. It’s not like I didn’t look at the cast for the audiobook, but I just didn’t connect him the person with him the octopus.

[00:13:13] You know, maybe some people don’t want to know that a human whose face they might recognize does bring the octopus to life. Maybe they just want to let Marcellus be Marcellus. But I was delighted to make that connection and was aghast that I hadn’t put it together sooner. So there you go, everyone.

PHOEBE: We all just learned so much. I had no idea.

ANNE: Phoebe, what’s the third book you love?

PHOEBE: I had some trouble, but I wanted to pick this one because I think it’s not a book that I hear a lot of people talk about. And the reason that I love it is not necessarily about the story, but the way it’s written. So my third book is called Milk Fed by Melissa Broder.

I find just, in general, I do really like Melissa Broder’s writing. I think that she is exceptional at writing about kind of the weird, maybe squidgy feelings that we all have about ourselves, but we wouldn’t say out loud, or we wouldn’t talk about. And she writes them in really creative ways. Like she takes it to the extreme of the most random thing possible.

[00:14:09] So in this book, she’s exploring, you know, feelings of self-discovery as the main character kind of learns that she may be queer, and is also struggling with an eating disorder, which there are some trigger warnings for this book. But I’ll say that the way that Melissa writes the character’s thoughts, and how she describes the feeling of what it is to be really worried about what you’re going to eat next, or calories, or all of these things, like she’s been in the head of someone who experienced that, perhaps because she has. And I just thought the imagery was unbelievable. I had just never really read writing like hers.

Her book, The Pisces, that I mentioned, she does the same thing. She takes these feelings like heartbreak, or passion or fear, anxiety, and just writes them out in this beautiful way that you’re like, yes, I’ve had that exact thought before. And so the book is kind of random, not really something that I would think about, but I found myself like unable to put it down.

[00:15:12] And I still recommend it if folks can handle kind of a more intense book. It’s just like, read this and tell me that you haven’t had that internal thought in your head before and been scared because you couldn’t talk to anyone about it, or you didn’t want to. I just think she’s really remarkable at that.

ANNE: However, you described your experience of finding reading The Pisces earlier, I haven’t read that book, but I’ve listened to several of her other works on audio, and I was just nodding like, yes, that’s what it’s like to read a Melissa Broder book.

PHOEBE: Yes.

ANNE: Where she’s so matter of fact about some of the… I mean, I’m thinking of Death Valley. Like she’s describing highly unrealistic things that still feel emotionally true.

PHOEBE: Exactly.

ANNE: That’s such a talent.

PHOEBE: Yes, yes. I think she’s great for working through some of those hard emotions or experiences and humanizing them by making them completely not human and sometimes unhinged, but in a way that you’re like, I feel better after reading that, I feel less alone.

[00:16:11] ANNE: That’s a lovely way to feel after reading a book. Phoebe, you also reflected on your all-time three books you love. Where did those reflections take you? What’s on your list?

PHOEBE: I’ll just share two. So first is Homegoing by Yaa Gyasi. I know a lot of people have spoken about this book, but it is all time my favorite book ever. I was so moved by her writing. I can’t believe… I think this was her debut. I’m like, I don’t know how you did that.

ANNE: She was like 26.

PHOEBE: Right? Like unfathomable. I think it was such a unique story. I loved that it spanned multiple generations and that there was kind of this element of like, where is this going? What is going to happen next? Even though it wasn’t nonfiction, the way that she spun some true events, and then kind of dramatize them for fiction, I thought was magical. I just think it was so well done and so beautiful.

[00:17:12] And at the time, I really wasn’t reading anything like it. I picked it up in my kind of thriller phase. And it’s my first real experience, I think, with true literary fiction. I just loved it. I can’t even describe it other than to say that things that are like families, and that kind of self-exploration, and long spans of time, all of that, I tend to love that in books. And I think it really started with Homegoing.

It’s the same reason I think there are similar elements and like the God of the Woods and some other books that I tend to really enjoy.

My other all-time favorite that I’ll just quickly share is Ready Player One by Ernest Cline. I will say this is kind of my out of left field book. But when I say I have never recommended this to someone and not have them love it. I think it is maybe my other most recommended book for everyone. Because once you start reading it, you just can’t put it down.

I don’t play video games. I don’t necessarily care about them, but I just picked this up, again, at McCay’s of all places, and found myself immersed and was like, what is happening? I think it is such an adventure if you go through it so quickly. And it does a fantastic job of bringing in this sci-fi fantastical world that you don’t need to have any background knowledge to get into.

[00:18:29] There isn’t any career, you don’t have to know about virtual reality or any of those things to be completely immersed. And I just love it. I just think it’s such an experience and adventure. It’s really not like anything else I read. I don’t read a ton of sci-fi, but that was one that I always go back to. I’ve recommended it to my husband. I’ve recommended it to my uncle who’s like 70. I’ve recommended it to other girlfriends who have shared it with their classrooms and things like that. It’s just something that I think everybody likes because it’s such a compelling story.

ANNE: I love that for you. Okay. And I’m nodding along as someone who doesn’t play video games. I mean, just like a little bit of Animal Crossing that my kids coerced me into. That’s the video game I played in the last 10 years, but really enjoyed that book. And of course, also I’m thinking of Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow right now. Don’t care about video games. Love that book. Wanted to read all about the video games.

PHOEBE: That one has been on my list for a long time. I need to read it and I just haven’t. It’s just terrible.

[00:19:27] ANNE: It’s not terrible. You’ve been reading other things. But it is a book that explores the human experience. I mean, we’re going to talk more about what you enjoy, but so far, that book is tracking for me with what you have enjoyed.

PHOEBE: Okay. That’s good to know. I’m glad to hear that.

ANNE: Phoebe, tell me about a book now that was not a good fit for you.

PHOEBE: This was a little bit of a hard decision for me because I wanted to pick something that I felt did explain maybe on a broader level of what I’m looking for and what doesn’t work for me. So I’m okay reading a lot of books that are just fine. I don’t need every single book to be a four or five-star. I’ve accepted that as kind of part of my exploration is that I will pick up things that are just kind of like meh. And that’s all right. It was good to have that knowledge. But I have a goal for this year to DNF more books, do not finish, put them down, which is hard for me.

[00:20:21] My first one of this year was Tress of the Emerald Sea. This has been recommended to me by a lot of people as just like a cute kind of palette cleanser. And I picked it up after I had just finished All the Colors of the Dark, which is lovely and dark. And I loved that. And I was like, maybe I’ll try something different.

And what I found is that it was too silly. I feel silly saying that, but it just… it was almost too light for what I was looking for. I do read books with heavier topics, and I’m okay with that. I think there were just not enough stakes in the book. I didn’t really care about the character. Like, yeah, she had like cute quirks, and I thought that it was nice that I think he wrote it like, you know, based on his wife. And that was like, Oh, sweet. But I just found myself not wanting to pick it up because I didn’t really care what was going to happen.

I think, you know, it was kind of a love story, but it didn’t feel like enough depth for me. I didn’t like the kind of breaking of the fourth wall of this character and kind of spinning silly tales. It just felt a little bit immature to me.

[00:21:27] Again, I’ll say this is strange, because some of my best friends who share some favorite books with me recommended it, rated it five stars, and I couldn’t finish it. So that’s what I brought, because I think it aligns with some of the things that I know I like in terms of the depth and the emotion and speaking on the human condition and all of those things. And while I’m fine to laugh when reading a book, I think I need a little bit more balance.

ANNE: Phoebe, what have you been reading lately? This is where I get to hear the kinds of books that catch your eye that you’re willing to take a chance on.

PHOEBE: I had a really great reading month, but a couple of that really stick out. Just last week, I finished

This Is How You Lose the Time War. I think I heard about this book on your show and I found it in a thrift store for like $1. I was like, “Yes, you’re coming home with me. And I just thought it was so beautiful, you know?

[00:22:18] I don’t know that I am… Am I sophisticated enough to be like, oh, the pros? But it was the descriptions and the way that it was written, the way it describes love, even though it’s not humans, and they’re robots and like the future and you know, there’s so many things that are kind of out there, the way that they describe falling in love and having this hunger for one another was really spectacular. And I just thought that it was really sweet and thoughtful. I teared up a little bit. I really enjoyed that. It was short kind of quick, but I think it had a really big impact.

ANNE: I heard that self-doubt creep in about the vocabulary.

PHOEBE: Yes.

ANNE: Okay, one heard on This Is How You Lose the Time War. I’m so glad that the universe put that in your path at the thrift shop for $1. Meant to be. But talk to me about sophistication and readerly vocabulary. If you’d like. Do you want to?

PHOEBE: Yeah, I do. This is something that I was like, Can we have a side quest here? Because I’m just curious. So I am in a couple book clubs and I do love to talk about books but I feel like I use the same couple of words because I’m like, is that really what I’m talking about?

[00:23:23] So, you know, things like is it prose? Is that what I’m looking for, really books that are really well-written? There are some authors and books that I’m like, This is beautiful to read. Even if the story as a whole is not my favorite, I’m not obsessed with the story, I can appreciate the lines and the beautiful moments in the book.

And I think that that’s prose. I think that’s what I’m talking about. Same thing with imagery. I feel like I know when I’m seeing it, but I’m not as confident when I’m talking about that. But I do love books that have, you know, similarly to what I was describing with Melissa Broder, where it’s like talking about something that like, yes, I felt this in a way that just describes it perfectly and you can imagine that in your head.

[00:24:04] But I always do worry a little bit, especially I think because I’m new to literary fiction, that I sound a little unsophisticated when I’m talking about it. Because I’m like, “I thought it was really pretty writing.” And I’m like, no, no, that’s not what I meant. And then I’m like, beautiful prose, does that feel disingenuous? I’m still exploring some of that. But I think that those are things that I like in a book if I’m using those phrases correctly.

ANNE: All right. I hear you. I don’t know that there’s anything wrong with saying, I think that was really pretty writing. I love that you’re not a jargon head. The thing that I’m most interested in, on the show, in my regular life, anywhere else I’m talking about books, is hearing what the reading experience was like for other readers. What caught their eye? What was kind of a put-off? What they didn’t understand, but eventually came to love? What they didn’t understand and still don’t understand, but can’t stop thinking about? And why, if they know it?

And like, yeah, if you said, “Oh, the prose was just really striking,” I would think that you meant that the words fell in the right order in the sentences in such a way that you like stopped to notice. You didn’t just absorb the story without the words being a barrier. But like, you noticed, oh, I like the way that the author strung those words together. But have you seen book review bingo? Like on literary Twitter back when Twitter was a thing?

[00:25:28] PHOEBE: I’ve seen some versions of book review bingo.

ANNE: Okay. What I’m picturing in my mind is this like little bingo card of 20 words. Actually, it would have to be like a five-by-five, right? Of 25 words a reader might use to describe a book. The idea is that a review can call a book self-effacing or smart or charming, well-written, deeply emblematic of the human experience because they could squeeze that all into the bingo card. And like so many times talking about books just feels like infinite combination of words that don’t really mean something specific. They’re just the kind of words that readers know could use to describe books.

And what I want to hear is, no, what was the reading experience really like for you? Like, don’t tell me the kind of words you might expect would be in a book review, but like from the gut, not that you can’t use your head, but from the gut, like, what do you feel? What do you think?

[00:26:24] I hear you perhaps saying like, it’s good to be sophisticated or to sound sophisticated. It’s not bad, but I don’t think that’s where the satisfaction is at in the readerly life. And people may disagree and that’s fine. Like maybe in your book club that is the value, but it doesn’t have to be your value.

And if you noticed, like, ooh, the prose in this book was really lovely, like good job Amal and Max. Like you can say the writing was pretty and it made you happy. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. I’m not going to look down my nose at you. Would some readers? Like maybe. But we don’t maybe want to talk about books with them. Can I say that?

PHOEBE: Yeah, I think that’s so true.

ANNE: Don’t be a snob. Like let’s talk about the book. Like yeah.

PHOEBE: Yes.

ANNE: Writers are generous and good writing is hospitable. Like, come on in and let’s talk about it together. Not let’s like bar you from entry if you’re not using the right words.

PHOEBE: Right, right. I definitely am not… there’s no test pass here. I’m not reading for academic purposes any longer. So it’s okay.

ANNE: And you’re glad about that.

PHOEBE: I am.

ANNE: It’s a good thing to your reading life.

[00:27:26] PHOEBE: I’m so glad to be reading for enjoyment and not for a paper or a test, for sure. That makes me feel a little better. It doesn’t necessarily matter as long as I’m describing and really sharing what it is that I enjoy. So thank you for that validation. I needed it.

ANNE: Okay. I’ll step off the soapbox. But also, flip side, like I hear you saying you feel a little unsure of what it is you’re describing. I think it’s okay to describe the thing instead of trying to categorize the thing. Like, were they doing something really cool with birds that you don’t understand necessarily, but kept noticing in the book? Like, yeah, that’s probably imagery, but you don’t need to define it as imagery. You can just say, like, I noticed this thing. What in the world? What was that author doing? I thought it was cool. Did you think it was cool? And then maybe somebody else says like, I don’t know about that. That was interesting and all. But did you see what she did with the chocolate? You don’t need to be able to pass the literary quiz to have a good conversation about the specifics of a book you enjoyed or didn’t enjoy as the case may be.

PHOEBE: Yes.

[00:28:27] ANNE: Okay. I said I was off the soapbox and I think I hopped back up for a sec.

PHOEBE: I love it. This is like all very… I’m like, yes, thank you. I feel very validated. So thank you again.

ANNE: Phoebe, we’ve only been talking about books for like 20 minutes and yet I feel confident that you’re going to read a book and know what kind of reading experience you had and be able to talk about that in a way that’s helpful and interesting to other readers. So I would hate to hear vocabulary be a hangup for you that might get in the way of you doing that.

PHOEBE: Thank you.

ANNE: Okay. Anything else you’ve been reading lately that you feel is important to mention?

PHOEBE: Yeah. I mean, one other that I’ll mention is I read The Frozen River, which I definitely got from the show. I actually went to my parents’ and my mom had it and I was like, “I’m borrowing that book.” I was a little uncertain because it was historical fiction and I wasn’t sure if I still liked that, but I love that book. I also flew through it.

I think I do love historical settings and not all the time, but I do enjoy that. I liked that there was a little bit of mystery. But I think the thing I loved the most was the commentary on just feminism and the patriarchy and what it’s like to be a strong, intelligent woman and kind of the things that people will do to kind of get you down or make you self-doubt.

[00:29:40] I just thought that there was a lot of positive messaging kind underlying that novel, as well as just a really fascinating story. And a great winter read because it was… I mean, the imagery, it was so frozen and you could tell. I think she did a great job writing about that because I was like, oh, Maine in winter in the 1700s sounds kind of terrible. But I did enjoy reading about it.

ANNE: That is a Maine book. I just finished a book set in Maine and I thought, “Golly, what is happening here?” My track record with Maine books is so good, as is my track record with Ariel’s books because I think she’s such an incredible writer. I’m so glad you picked that one up. I’m formulating theories about what’s working for you and we’ll talk more about that.

Phoebe, what are you looking for in your reading life right now?

PHOEBE: I may be a little embarrassed to admit, but I have clues…

ANNE: Everybody [inaudible 00:30:26].

PHOEBE: I know.

ANNE: Tell us everything.

PHOEBE: I have almost 200 unread books on my shelves. It’s my physical TBR that is never-ending. I would love some help of figuring out where to go next. I’ll say that in my year of discovery in 2024, though I have learned more about what I like, I still am very easily convinced if someone loves a book and they describe it well enough, I’m like, yeah, let’s do it. That sounds great.

[00:30:54] Folks will come on your show or I’ll hear about books from other people that I know that realistically, if I stop to think about it, I’m like, I’m not going to enjoy that. I don’t typically read those types of books. But when someone’s so passionate about it, I’m like, “Why not?” And then I buy it and then I get it home and I’m like, “Well, I don’t really have the motivation to read it anymore. It was just like the thrill of the hunt.”

So I would love some help deciding where to go within my own shelves. For instance, I have a collection of dark academia books because that was really trending on BookTok. And there are some books that I have a feeling I’m going to love, but also if I don’t, I’m going to be really upset. I’m thinking like The Secret History. I’ve been looking at it and avoiding it because I’m like, “What if I hate it?”

ANNE: What if you do?

PHOEBE: I know. I’m going to be upset because I know I have so many dark academia books that I thought I was going to love.

ANNE: Oh, upset because it knocks out a whole category?

PHOEBE: Yeah. I’m afraid that it will.

ANNE: I mean, it might not, but also I hear the fear.

[00:31:48] PHOEBE: Yeah. Because there’s so many things that, like I said, I think I could like, it sounds very interesting. And so really I am looking for direction with the things that I have kind of amassed of what you think would be a good fit, kind of go next, I’m open for anything.

And then also if there are any that you’re like, you know, I actually don’t think that that’s going to be a good fit, I would love your opinion on that too. I know that’s not exactly what we’re doing here today. This is not a what shouldn’t I read next, but I am curious because there are some I’m sure, like Tress of the Emerald Sea, where I was like so sure I was going to like it, and then I read, you know, 100 pages, I was like, “Eh, never mind.” So yeah, I’m just kind of looking for where to dig in so I can make a dent in this large, large library of mine.

ANNE: Okay. You had your year of discovery. Where are you now? Do you still feel like you’re seriously in a discovery phase? I’m hoping you’ll say yes but I want to know the actual reality you’re living in and reading in.

[00:32:47] PHOEBE: Yeah. I think I still am. So you know, like I said, I just started to read horror and I think I’m still investing in, you know, how scary can I go? I thought that my experience with reading horror was going to be much more intense. I’m a scaredy cat. I could look at the dark hallway for too long and scare myself and run up the stairs.

ANNE: Sorry, sorry. I’m laughing because I can see myself doing that.

PHOEBE: Right? And I always thought, you know, if I’m reading something horror, I’m going to imagine the scariest thing in my mind and I’m not… like, there’s no way. But in actuality, I found that there’s a lot more of like horror can also just be haunting elements or like it can be horror about things in life. And it isn’t necessarily like a scary like ghost or you know, a demon or something like that.

So I’m still exploring, I think the depths of that. Again, with literary fiction, I’ve definitely found that I do enjoy books that are more just character-driven than plot. That doesn’t bother me. But I don’t know that I have gotten a full grasp on what’s going to be something I like every time.

[00:33:50] I still feel like I read a lot of books that are just like, Oh, that was fine. But I don’t love it’s still taking me a while to find those. So yes, I still feel like I’m exploring, to answer your question.

ANNE: Exploring is good. Getting to know your taste is good. Also, maybe you love the secret history, maybe you hate it. But readers who enjoy dark academia sometimes don’t love every book in that genre. And so the good and the bad news is what speaks to you, especially what speaks to you at any given moment in time is dependent on a combination of numerous factors.

And so I want to help you understand the factors, but we’re not going to be like, dark academia slam dunk forever and ever. Endless five stars. Here we go. I know you know that. But sometimes it’s helpful to speak the things we know out loud.

Okay, can I tell you the things I’m seeing?

PHOEBE: Yes.

[00:34:47] ANNE: Okay, so I’m gathering that you enjoy books that have a unique hook. Like even a literary mystery like The God of the Woods, it wasn’t just the literary mystery that got you. It’s the historical fiction set in the 70s, so not that long ago, that made it unlike anything you’ve ever read.

So there was a mystery, there were family elements, there were surprises, there was a strong sense of culture. There were numerous narrators in that book, some of whom aren’t as frequent types to appear in that kind of novel. I think you like something unique about a story. Interesting and unexpected characters. I think interesting and unexpected combinations of characters and elements.

You said you enjoy books that aren’t 100% realistic. And I wonder if you appreciate it when author expands past the expected, whether that’s in a magical realism way, or whether that’s in a Melissa Broder kind of way, whether that has to do with the timeline.

[00:35:46] Like yeah, Jessie telling her story sequentially through a family line. You don’t stay with anybody so long. You get a hundred years. It’s been a while since I read this, but I think you get like a hundred-something years of just story after story of unrelated characters. That’s not how most people write novels, and you were here for it. You like the weird girl book, so that’s a very obvious manifestation of that unexpected.

You’re looking for the authentic emotional experience, like you said, and you enjoy reading about families and self-exploration. You want to interrogate the heavier topics. Is that tracking?

PHOEBE: Yes.

ANNE: Also, what am I leaving out?

PHOEBE: I’m very much just like, yes, that’s exactly. Thank you. If someone had asked me, I’d been like, I don’t know. But you just articulated it perfectly. I do like magical realism. I have found that I do. I tend to enjoy books that have a little bit of that or something that is just kind of a little off.

[00:36:41] My husband kind of makes fun of me because I did read a couple of books. I read [inaudible 00:36:46], which I have to say it was a little too out there for me. But I’m like, I’ll try it. And he’s kind of like, “Why are you reading these books?” And I’m like, “Well, they’re so out there that it is really easy for me to get completely engrossed. There is not really anything that reminds me of real life here, or a situation that I would be in. And so it allows me to fully immerse myself and kind of disconnect.”

And so I agree. I think the hook, the quick hook, like you said, and something that has kind of a little bit beyond the element of some variety, not that it has to be magic, but I do tend to really find myself absorbed in those.

And while I do sometimes read romances or things that could be more real to life, I tend, I think, to love the ones that have just something a little bit different, like you said.

ANNE: Yeah. I wonder if you also appreciate the reflective distance that those elements of unreality give you. Like, I wonder if having an octopus reflect on the human experience lets you think more philosophically about what’s happening in the story and about your human experience and the character’s human experience, than you might if it were like the best friend sharing their observations about what it’s like to be human.

[00:37:58] PHOEBE: Yes. I feel like maybe I have never heard something so true. Yes, that’s exactly what it is. It’s funny because I can think about just some books or characters where I’m like, yeah, if a person says that, I would be annoyed, or if that’s like what the person was trying to get at, I would be irritated that they’re like trying to give me this lesson. But when it’s an octopus or when it’s, you know, a time-traveling apartment or something, then I’m like, yeah, look at all what we’ve learned. Wow. That really was like nail on the head. Exactly. Nailed it.

ANNE: Okay. Okay. We’re going to put a pin in that. My brain is nagging on your reading taste changing, vastly changing in 2024. I have questions. First of all, I think this is true of most people, but I think you might be on the further end of the spectrum. I’m seeing a dynamic organic relationship between your reading and your life.

[00:38:55] Like what is happening in one… not what is happening in one, but what is happening in your life really impacts what you want to be reading and what you feel like you can read. Like you mentioned that when things changed in your life, you didn’t want to pick up the thousand-page novel. But also I wonder if you didn’t want to pick up the thousand-page novel… I mean, it could have been about the book specifically, but I also wonder if you really value a sense of novelty, a sense of discovery, of learning, of exploration. Like if having new categories of reading experience is meaningful and satisfying to you as a reader.

I wonder if it wasn’t that your taste changed exactly, but that you’ve always had a taste for exploration and it wasn’t getting satisfied at a certain point of so long reading similar books. This is just an idea. What do you think?

PHOEBE: I mean, I haven’t thought about it that way, but as you’re saying that, I’m like, yes, I think that makes a lot of sense. I think back to that novel that was a thousand pages in one. It was eight-book series and that was the last book. And I was like, oh my gosh, I just want it to be done.

[00:40:03] But I do think, you know, as I was talking earlier about some of the romanticy, I really don’t read a lot of that anymore because it did start to all feel the same. Like I was kind of going to the same place and that just wasn’t as interesting to me.

I wanted a different perspective on whatever it is that we’re talking about, whether it’s fantasy or it’s something, you know, a real human thing. I like to have a different perspective and kind of get all of the input from however many kind of angles that it can be addressed. So yeah, I do think that.

And I’m thinking about even when I was younger, a lot of historical fiction because it was going to a different place. Not that I need to go back to Tudor England by any means, but it was interesting to read about because it was something that I didn’t know a lot about and it was completely different than growing up in the Midwest. So I see some of that.

ANNE: I mean, you can reflect on these questions and what you think of our conversation at leisure. My goal today is to give you perhaps questions that you hadn’t previously considered and also really to build your confidence.

[00:41:07] Like you don’t know if you’re going to enjoy a certain book or kind of book necessarily, but I’m hoping that after our conversation you can choose what to explore with confidence. Feeling like your time spent with the book will be, however long it is, 30 pages or, you know, 500, will be worthwhile because you know what kind of information it could provide about your taste right now and your reading life in this season.

PHOEBE: That would be great.

ANNE: Now let’s look at those 200 unread books. Would you tell me how this collection came to be? What do these 200 books represent?

PHOEBE: I think I really like to have options and I like getting to talk about them. You know, when I’m there in my background in my office, someone calls for like, Ooh, and it, you know, kind of opens up the opportunity. And like I said, I think that there’s a lot of like hearing about it somewhere and then finding it. Especially when it was not as much of a mainstream book. Like I might see it on that weird girl books on TikTok, and, you know, not every store has them. So I’m going to different indie bookstores as I’m traveling for work or I’m going to… you know, we have a couple of really fantastic used bookstores and I’m like hunting through shelves and I’m like, Ah, and I found this one.

[00:42:28] And so it’s all books that I’m like, Oh, no, this definitely sounded interesting to me at some point and I wanted to have it for whenever the time is right. The problem is that I just keep amassing the books and then I do tend to run out of time or I’m not giving myself time because I just keep getting more books. So I have to stop.

But it’s just because, you know, anything could be interesting. I’m kind of down for all of it. You know, there are a few things that I know don’t work, but other than that, I’m like, yeah, sure. I’ll try whatever. If somebody really enjoys it, I might enjoy it too. I just keep finding them. And I love a good deal. I have to add that in too.

ANNE: This is all very relatable. Okay, Phoebe. So you sent us the books you love and the books you don’t in your submission. So I had a headstart on this and thought of some books I thought you may enjoy. A couple of them popped up on your list. So I definitely want to tell you what those are.

But also as I was scanning your list of 200 books, there are a lot of books where I thought, “I could see that maybe. I could see. I’d be curious to hear how that, you know, ends up for her. But there were some that made me go, “Oh yes.” So can we talk about those?

PHOEBE: Yes, I would love to.

[00:43:39] ANNE: First, as I was going over your everything… and you know, we didn’t talk about the emails we exchanged about All the Colors of the Dark by Chris Whitaker or Hello Beautiful by Ann Napolitano. I will say I had those books in my mental bank as well. But I was reading through your list like, “Oh, has she read any Silvia Moreno-Garcia?

You talked especially about reading horror and enjoying branching out there, even though you don’t like scary stuff. As a scaredy cat myself, I’m not saying you are, but this is definitely my position, I have been surprised at how much I’ve enjoyed Silvia Moreno-Garcia.

Also, she writes… oh, how do I put this? Every time she writes a book, I think, how does she do that? How does she come up with this? She writes so many works that are such… I mean, they feel like a family, like a body of work, but also each book is so different from the one before.

[00:44:39] It was Mexican Gothic on your list, and I don’t think that’s a bad choice for you, but the one that came to mind before I saw your list of 200 books was Silver Nitrate, which came out, I think, going on two summers ago. It’s summer in my mind because it was in the Summer Reading Guide that year. But it’s a horrific thriller that is, like, darkly funny, set in 1990s Mexico City. So very much of a time and place.

Readers will differ on if that can actually be categorized as historical fiction. Something in me recoils. Like, no, I was in high school in the 90s, that can’t be historical fiction, but yet it’s getting called that sometimes. But it’s about… I mean, could we call this a weird girl book? I think we could.

The main female protagonist, Montserrat, so interesting name, I feel like that’s telling us something right off the bat, she has a love of classic horror films that really bonded her to Tristan, her childhood best friend, and now she’s an underappreciated sound engineer who has a lot, a lot of technical knowledge and skill about something almost nobody else knows about.

[00:45:45] But in this novel, her and her best friend, who’s a washed-up telenovela star, so that’s fun to read about, get mixed up with an unfinished horror film from the 30s, the tape of which somebody brings them, the script was written by a Nazi occultist, and bad things happen when they play this thing.

It’s a little bloody in places, which I don’t enjoy, like reading with my hands over my eyes, not like that works at all. But I think the surprise and delight factor may be high for you, because I think it’s going to feel different and also speak to the human experience, along with a whole host of other things that you have enjoyed reading about. But it definitely feels like further along your path of discovery. How does that sound?

PHOEBE: It sounds really good. And you know, this is so funny, Anne, because I think I had heard you mention this book before and I have been at the store and had it in my hands and then been like, Oh no, it’s okay. It was one of those ones where I was like, I bet it would really work for me and I just haven’t gone all the way through and bought it. But I have definitely almost purchased it so many times. So now I’m like, well, this is a sign I’m going to have to do it-

ANNE: What?

[00:47:02] PHOEBE: …because it does sound interesting to me. And, you know, even hearing you describe it in more detail now, I’m like, Ah, yes, this does seem like it would be up my alley. So I’m gonna have to get it.

ANNE: Happy to hear it. Can’t wait to hear what you think. Also, I was thinking of Piglet by Lottie Hazell for you, and then I saw it on your list. So this novel made me deeply uncomfortable. I think that is Lottie Hazel’s aim. Also, I couldn’t stop thinking about it. I couldn’t stop talking about it.

But Piglet is the central character. You do eventually find out her real name, but not until the book’s final pages, which is definitely on purpose. And really, I was just like, oh, that was good the way you did that, Lottie Hazel.

But Piglet is a cookbook editor at a London publisher. She’s set to get married in, she tells us, 98 days and she thinks she’s doing everything right. Like she has found the building blocks to build the life of her dreams and everything’s falling into order. But then her fiancé confesses to a betrayal. We never find out exactly what happened, but it’s under two weeks away from the wedding day and things start to fall apart.

[00:48:08] Piglet doesn’t realize at first. You can feel her trying to like, ah, things together through brute force, but it’s not going to happen. I really want this book to have a conversation with Melissa Broder’s works on the shelf. I feel like they’d have a lot to say to each other in the way they present and capture human emotions.

Gosh, I would need some time to sit with that and articulate that in better words. But this isn’t like what you’ve said you’ve enjoyed, but I think it would cozy up nicely with what you’ve said you’ve enjoyed. What do you think?

PHOEBE: That is also one I picked it up last summer and I have been like, Oh, maybe I’ll read it this month. And I just kind of haven’t gotten to it because I bought it off. A couple of people kind of say they didn’t like it. I’m like, Oh, I don’t know. But it does also sound like something I want. I mean, it was a reason I bought it in the first place. I did think that I would like it.

And hearing you kind of say some similarities or overlap with Melissa Broder and some of her books, I’m like, Ooh. If it’s at all kind of down that realm, I think I would really like it. So that is very affirming. Thank you.

[00:49:18] ANNE: Okay. Glad to hear it. I got to say, I noticed that The Nickel Boys was on your list twice, and maybe that’s a sign. Yes, I do have two copies of it. Do you know how that happened?

PHOEBE: This is also something I do. It’s like I found a really nice paperback of it, but then I found a pristine hardcover copy of it at a thrift store that was like… you know, it’s a white cover. It wasn’t even dirty. And I was like, okay, well, I’m going to have to have this, the hardcover. And I figured, you know, it’s one of those books where I know it can be more intense, but I think it’s like one of those that’s kind of like a must-read, given the kind of era we’re in right now.

And I thought, well, there are worse things for me to put a copy in a little free library nearby, and so I ended up picking up book copies. But have I read either of them? No. Just on my list.

ANNE: You know, I want to know the story why. But do I have several copies of some books because I thought somebody wants a copy and it’s in front of me for $1.50? Yes, I absolutely do.

PHOEBE: It’s so tempting.

[00:50:17] ANNE: It is indeed. Phoebe, we haven’t talked a lot about nonfiction today, but Burn Book by Kara Swisher jumped out at me and I thought, wow, if this is a book that spoke to you and it’s on your shelf, this feels like a really interesting moment to read it in. Donna on our team, Donna’s our resident spreadsheet whisperer, she just happened to mention when she and I had a meeting back in the summer or fall that she was enjoying the audio version.

And I wasn’t familiar with Kara Swisher’s podcast, but I thought like, “Donna has a great taste. I’ll give this a try.” And she speaks to her experience as a journalist covering U.S. tech companies beginning in the 1990s. And it’s part professional memoir, part recent history, part commentary.

I think the way this intersects with where we are as a country and what the headline news is these days could make this really interesting reading for right now. What are you thinking about this book at the moment? Like not talking to me today, but like as you see it on your shelf in 2025?

[00:51:21] PHOEBE: The funny thing that is like the whole other side of this kind of story that I haven’t told you is that I have tons of fiction books. My husband has probably 200 nonfiction books. He reads exclusively nonfiction, a lot of political books, and he’s definitely a collector. So I was not familiar with Kara Swisher, but he got us tickets last summer to see her speak at the library here in Philly. And I was like, Ooh, you know, her commentary is really interesting working in tech. I thought it was like… you know, I resonated with some of the things that she said.

I’m trying to read more nonfiction this year. I’m thinking, like, I’m gonna have to fight for a crack that open because she definitely interested me hearing her speak about it. And I do think it’s very timely given even just the last few weeks.

ANNE: Okay, that’s so interesting. 200 nonfiction once you decide how you feel about the fiction. Now, based on what I got to hear you say, especially about what you love, I really wonder about Birnam Wood by Eleanor Catton.

[00:52:21] I mean, this is another compulsively readable literary mystery. I very much have the God of the Woods in mind. Eco-thriller meets Shakespearean tragedy. It’s not a coincidence that Shakespeare is referenced in the title of this book.

It’s set in New Zealand. It’s high stakes, lots of action, but lots of deep thoughts as well. You appreciate a good ending. I think you may enjoy this one. I will say there is so much to talk about in this book. I’ve heard so many readers say this is the kind of book that you finish and you go, “Who’s read it? Who can I talk to about this?” How are you feeling about that one right now?

PHOEBE: That was a recent purchase for me. I also thrifted that one. It was one of those, I know I’ve heard of this and saw some really great reviews. And it seems like I was like, oh, this might be along the mystery lines that I have been liking recently. But I didn’t know a lot about it.

So I kind of picked it up on a whim. So I’m excited to hear you say that because I didn’t have a ton of context on it. So I don’t know that I would have gotten to it had you not shared that. But now knowing that, I’m like, oh, I’m going to have to definitely pick that one up sooner because I have been enjoying those kind of mysteries lately.

[00:53:34] ANNE: I mean, really speaking of Kara Swisher, this is a book about a powerful American billionaire who gets mixed up with an idealistic activist group focused on environmental rights and guerrilla gardening. And when the two come together, bad things happen. Bad, highly readable things happen.

PHOEBE: Oh, I can’t wait.

ANNE: Okay, I’d love that for you. I don’t want to focus just on the books with magical elements, although that did really jump out at me based on what you said. Oh, okay. But before we move on, you have a long history with historical fiction and Weyward is a fairytale-like historical novel that links three women going back to the 1600s up to just about the present day in 2019, who are connected by… I mean, they’re all part of the same family and they all have slightly magical natural powers that they are in varying degrees of possession of.

So they’re living in different eras, they’re facing very different circumstances, but Emilia Hart shows us how these women are fundamentally alike, what they have in common as Weyward women.

Weyward is the family’s cottage in the beautiful British countryside. And we get to see, even before they do, the deep spiritual connection they have that will ultimately save them from the terrible things they’re experiencing, that’s domestic violence in the present day, horrible misogyny, and patriarchy in the 40s.

[00:55:07] Our 1600s protagonist is accused of being a witch because she has this knowledge of natural remedies and the healing arts that have saved people in her village and also made her seem very, very suspicious in the eyes of some.

You used to love historical fiction. I think this has some elements that would make it more likely to be a book that you’re glad you spent your time with. How does that sound?

PHOEBE: That sounds really good. That hasn’t been another one where I finally grabbed it just the other week because it had been on my list for so long. I’d heard so many people talk about how much they love it. I had an inkling that I would probably like it, but now I’m like, okay, good. I feel much more confident in that decision. I’m excited to pick it up.

ANNE: And I’m excited to hear what you think. Okay, we also need to talk about Come and Get It, not a weird girl book, but I feel like it’s weird girl adjacent. This is by Kiley Reid. This is a dark campus comedy of manners set at the University of Arkansas. And it’s about the intersecting lives of a University of Arkansas resident advisor, the college girls who live on her floor, and a visiting professor who’s working on her next book. And all these people are dealing with painful recent losses.

[00:56:21] Some people didn’t like this because they felt like it didn’t have a tight plot and it wasn’t really about anything. And I thought, What book did you read? But I do want you to know, think about that and what you want from this book. But I found this to be a multifaceted portrait of women and money. There’s so much here about money, including the topic of the visiting professor’s book that she’s working on.

There’s a lot of complex and sometimes uncomfortable power dynamics, lots going on with race and privilege. This is very much a novel about what it’s like to live and work on a college campus. And also all these women are searching for hope and security in the midst of some really unique between all the characters here, but really difficult circumstances.

I feel like in this and her debut, Such a Fun Age, Reid puts her characters into really like tight corners and just watches them wriggle and try to get out of it. So if that sounds like, Ohh, I don’t want that reading experience, then you don’t want that reading experience. But if that sounds like kind of delicious, then I think you might. How does that sound?

[00:57:27] PHOEBE: That sounds really good. You know, I think I’m going to have to read that one soon. Having lived and worked on a college campus and kind of seen some of those things, a college campus in the South and lived some of those, I think I’m going to have to read that one soon just to see how it compares.

ANNE: We’re going to do two more. And I will say explicitly, I feel like if you brought me the books, we got to leave you with more than three. So you mentioned dark academia. I almost forgot. Give Babel a try. It’s historical fantasy, dark academic. It also has a magical realism element because in this book, words can be turned into currency.

There’s a lot going on here, but it’s also got a nice plot, some narrative drive, commentary on empire and colonialism, surprising turns, musings on translation, lots of footnotes, if you enjoy that kind of thing. How’s this sounding to you?

[00:58:27] PHOEBE: I’m very interested in Babel. I have been very intimidated by it, but I know that R. F. Kuang has a new book coming out this year and I do kind of want… I’m interested in that too. And so I have been really thinking about Babel. I just was a little nervous, but I know I need to just kind of dive in because it is kind of like the quintessential or one of the quintessential dark academia. And it sounds like it combines a few other elements that I also enjoy. So yes, I’m like, this was the push I needed. I’m like, I do need to do it. I’ve just been a little scared, but I think, you know, if I don’t like it, I don’t have to continue, but I have a feeling I will.

ANNE: Is it because it sounds cerebral?

PHOEBE: Mm-hmm. Yes.

ANNE: It’s so easy to get swept up in the story. It is really smart. She’s doing a lot of like really smart, nerdy things. And also lots of readers find it to be a great story. The end.

Finally, The Dutch House, historical fiction story with a long span of time like you enjoy, and I think a really excellent pick considering your love of Hello Beautiful specifically.

[00:59:32] PHOEBE: I haven’t read Anne Patchett before, but I have a couple and I have a feeling I would like her work. So that’s a great place to start. Thank you.

ANNE: I think this is a great place to jump in and see what you think. Phoebe, how are you feeling?

PHOEBE: I’m feeling good. I’m really excited.

ANNE: What are you going to be thinking about when we hang up?

PHOEBE: Oh my gosh, I am going to be thinking about like, what am I in the mood for? I am a mood reader and I’m like, oh gosh, so many of these sound good. I may have to go straight into Babel. Let’s just do it. So let’s just do it. It’s still wintery and cold out. I’m like, maybe it’s the… I don’t know.

ANNE: All right, that sounds great. And I’m so excited to hear what you think you’ll try next. And I’d love to hear what you continue thinking about and what you discover in your reading life.

PHOEBE: Thanks a lot, Anne.

ANNE: Hey readers, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Phoebe and I’d love to hear what you think she may enjoy reading next. You can connect with Phoebe on Instagram and Story Graph. We’ll have those links along with the full list of titles we talked about today at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

[01:00:33] You’ll find our shows page on Instagram @WhatShouldIReadNext? And we would love it if you’d follow us over there and tag us when you share your favorite book discoveries from our show.

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Thanks to the people who made this episode happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by Will Bogel, Holly Wilkoszewski, and Studio D Podcast Productions. Readers, that is it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, “Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading.” Happy reading, everyone.