[00:00:00] KELLY DAVIS: I went years with no book club at all, and now I have more book clubs than I know what to do with.

ANNE BOGEL: Hey readers, I’m Anne Bogel and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that’s dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don’t get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we’ll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

Readers, we have celebrated birthday milestones here on the podcast before. Last month, we revisited team member Donna’s birthday book store road trip and today we’re talking with a guest who designed an ultimate book party for her recent 50th birthday.

Kelly Davis lives in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, where she works for her alma mater and dedicates much of her free time to caring for her garden and listening to audiobooks.

For Kelly’s recent 50th birthday, she planned a big celebration at her local beignet company. Gosh, that sounds delightful. In lieu of other presents, she asked guests to bring a book that they loved. Any book that they loved. Her goal was to gather 50 bucks for 50 years.

[00:03:01] Kelly’s party was a great success. A good time was had by all. But the fun didn’t stop there. Kelly then went on to create a master document full of nerdy analysis of the book she received and included lots of charts and graphs by genre that I know some of you would really love.

Now, Kelly would like my help in choosing which of these titles to reach for next. She is staring down plenty of intriguing titles chosen by the people who mean the most to her, and that feels a little daunting. What Kelly needs is a plan, and today I’m happy to help her craft one. Let’s get to it.

Kelly, welcome to the show.

KELLY: Hi, Anne. I was so thrilled to see your name come in my inbox. I’m such a fan of the show.

ANNE: Oh, well, we were really excited here at team What Should I Read Next? when we saw your submission, because you wrote about how you chose to celebrate a special occasion, and we are going to get into the details, but it reminded us so much of our team member Donna’s experience from years ago. We know how that has really inspired so many What Should I Read Next? readers. I said I wasn’t going to get into it and look what I did, but the pleasure is mine. Thank you for coming on and making the time.

[00:04:12] Kelly, tell me a little bit about yourself. We want to give our listeners a glimpse of who you are.

KELLY: Well, I’m a lifelong resident of Lancaster County here in Pennsylvania. Folks might know it, it’s a frequent tourist destination for people who want to visit Amish country. We’re filled with beautiful farms and fields. Then as a result, we have these great farmers markets filled with goodies like jams, jellies, whoopie pies, shoofly pies, and the like.

I currently work for my alma mater. It is a public institution of higher education here in the state, and I’ve been there for about 16 years. Right now I work in Student affairs.

At home, I would probably describe myself as an introvert who really enjoys a good cup of coffee or tea and a quiet time with a book. Otherwise, you’ll find me outside in my garden. I have a lot of native perennial beds and some beautiful English roses. And really, my joy is seeing the birds, the bees, and the butterflies take advantage of that space. But it’s also such a great opportunity to listen to audiobooks while I garden.

[00:05:20] ANNE: It’s been a bit of a theme this summer.

KELLY: Mm-hmm.

ANNE: Kelly, we would love to hear more about your recent birthday and how you chose to celebrate it. Please tell us everything.

KELLY: This was a big birthday for me this year as I got ready to celebrate my 50th birthday. My husband really encouraged me to throw my own birthday party. He took care of paying the bills for it. But in a previous life I was an event planner and I have pretty high standards, so he was very sage in deciding to let me make the plans myself, which honestly, I enjoy the planning just as much as the execution.

So we decided on a little place down in Lancaster City called the Lancaster Beignet Company, which basically serves lovely caffeinated drinks and very sweet beignets. We invited all of our friends.

[00:06:18] We wrote this little poem inviting people to come, and the goal was to have people bring a book. It could be new. It could be used. It could be dog-eared. It didn’t matter. It was just a question of give me a book that means something to you.

The goal was 50 books for 50 years. We invited our friends. They just dropped in as they could make it. And it was a joy to see my friends meeting other friends, you know, from different parts of my life. We ended that night… my face hurt so much from laughing and smiling and just spending good time with people.

There was powdered sugar literally everywhere. People sent me pictures from their cars days later with just powdered sugar from the bags they left with. It was super fun.

I ended up with 40 books, actually 41 books, and a bunch of gift cards. My friends chose to purchase books, you know, as we asked them to, but others chose to purchase book gift cards for local indie bookstores. We have a couple great ones here in Lancaster. Pocket Books is my absolute favorite.

[00:07:35] I’ve got some decent amount of money to spend to purchase those remaining ten-plus books and of course, a few Taylor Swift stickers for my laptop.

ANNE: Kelly, was there ever a question about books being part of this birthday celebration for you?

KELLY: No. Books are such a big part of my life. I mean, it meant a lot to me as a child. I’ve been a lifelong reader. I think my first memories, really, of childhood are of reading. Actually, one of the things that I would say I did most as a kid… Do you remember the old plastic record players that we might have had as kids?

ANNE: Yes. Yes, I do.

KELLY: I mean, I was probably listening to audiobooks well before the advent of Libby. The story that my mom tells the most often about me is I would listen to Peter Rabbit on that little plastic record player. She would get it started for me because I wasn’t allowed to touch it, and then she’d go down to the basement and start working on laundry.

[00:08:42] These are tiny little records. And so just as we’re getting to the really important part where Mr. McGregor has found the rabbit in his carrot patch, serious cliffhanger moment, it’s time to turn that thing over to the other side. So I had to run downstairs and drag my mother up as though I had not heard this a million times before. You know, we’re at a point where I have to know what’s going to happen next. Mom would say, you know, “Here we go again. I can hear the little feet coming down the steps. Mom, Mom, Mr. McGregor is in the carrot patch.” So I’ve been listening to audiobooks for a very long time.

ANNE: A very long time.

KELLY: Indeed.

ANNE: Books are very important to you, and I’m wondering if they’ve always been such a key element in your friendships and your community, or if this was something new that you expanded into for this special occasion.

KELLY: It’s always been a big part of my life, but not so much as community. Although I think right now I’m in about four book clubs. So, as I am getting older and building community in different ways, I have found my way into… I mean, I went years with no book club at all and now I have more book clubs than I know what to do with.

[00:10:02] ANNE: I’m reminded of our team member Brigid’s episode that we just aired again in July called How Many Book Clubs is Too Many Book Clubs? Four is a lot, but is it too many? I’m hoping you’ll say no.

KELLY: It is not. No. They’re all different groups of people, and it’s just so diverse and varied. One is for work. One is a group of folks that I work with who’ve always wanted to be in a book club and are… you know, they heard me talking about a different book club.

Then I have another book club that is about five people and just perfect. We sit on someone’s front porch every two months and just discuss a book that one of us has chosen. It’s so laid back and low-stakes. It’s wonderful.

ANNE: That sounds delightful. Kelly, you came away from this experience with 40-something books, physical, tangible books, and I imagine lots of enthusiasm, good intentions. Tell me the current situation and what you’re looking for here.

[00:11:09] KELLY: Wow. I did indeed. I came away with 41 books, and they are currently all sitting here looking at me, waiting for me to decide on that very first book. I think as an Enneagram 9, I’ve kind of become paralyzed by choice. I had this wonderful intention that I was going to send my thank you cards, not all en masse, but send them as I read a book. And yet here I am, many weeks later, and I have not started a single book.

I would say that probably comes from my love of my local library. I have a tendency to visit that institution on a regular basis. Don’t usually go in with a real intention of what I’m going to do. I just kind of look through the shelves, check out what’s new and shiny, and kind of go from there.

[00:12:06] I do enjoy my library quite a bit, and as a result, my current gifts, which are so tied to the people who gave them to me, I’m kind of in this quandary now that I’ve not sent a single thank you note, so thank you to my friends for taking the time and putting so much thought into these wonderful gifts. And yet, here I am kind of at this crossroads of which book do I start with.

ANNE: This may not resonate, but I’m also wondering if there’s a reluctance to, in a sense, not play favorites by choosing, you know, the book one friend brought you instead of the book that another friend chose.

KELLY: It’s absolutely the case. So I’m hoping maybe you’ll be able to help me out in just getting that kick-started.

ANNE: Okay, friends, I may make some choices today. It’s not personal. I want to say it’s not personal. It’s reading, which is an attempt at a you’ve got mail joke. But of course, it’s personal because it’s reading and I can see how that is so hard.

[00:13:06] We were laughing, I want to almost say commiserating about both being Enneagram 9s earlier. So Kelly, you know, I get the indecision and the wanting to prioritize relationships that has you going, Oh, this is so exciting. I can’t touch them.

KELLY: Yes.

ANNE: We will find our way in. And to do so, we need to know more about what you love and what you don’t. I assume your intention is to read all these books in good time. Is that accurate?

KELLY: That is true. Yes.

ANNE: Okay, that is good to know. And so I can see that we are talking about timing and also how you are approaching these books, like the framing you’re giving yourself for this experience and for the specific titles you’re about to enter into. Although some sooner than others.

Kelly, how did you choose your books for today?

KELLY: I am-

[00:14:06] ANNE: I feel like you already told me so much. Do you just feel it out?

KELLY: Honestly, with these I went back to my Goodreads and I looked for four and five-star books because I am a stingy star giver. So I figured if it was a five-star book, I must have really loved it. And as I started to think about those books again, I thought, these are books that have stuck with me in one way or another, a quote, a feeling, something or another.

So I really feel like these books are a good mix of the type of book I listen to or read and also just they’ve resonated and they’ve stayed with me all this time. So yeah, they may not be my absolute favorite of all time, but they are ones that continue to run around in my brain.

ANNE: That sounds good to me. Kelly, what’s the first book you love?

KELLY: The first book I love is The 7 1/2 Deaths of Evelyn Hardcastle by Stuart Turton. This one is a fast-paced book. I’m a generally slow reader and this is quite a large book for me, but I devoured it in two days. I hadn’t remembered that until I looked back and I thought, This is a first for me.

[00:15:26] I tend to take a very long time. I’m usually four weeks to read a book of that size. So two days was a significant amount of time for me. I must have just sat and read straight through.

But it is a murder mystery. It weaves a tale of a man’s journey to find a killer. But it’s this convoluted romp through time with weaving timelines. He shares his existence in eight different bodies. It’s just this crazy mix of things that goes on.

But the premise of the book is every night at 11 p.m. Evelyn is murdered. There are eight days and eight witnesses for this man to inhabit and a house that won’t let him escape until he names the killer.

The thing I loved about this book is the mansion is a character in its own right and all of the long cast of characters are so clearly drawn. Like you can see them, you can feel what they’re going through because he is inhabiting their bodies and talking about everything he sees and everything he feels in these bodies. So it’s really interesting.

[00:16:44] Also, I love this aspect of it. They’re in an Old English manor, and there’s an upstairs-downstairs kind of quality, so we’re talking about class structure, we’re talking about the people working in the bowels of the building to make this party that the book centers around go on. You’re talking about the aristocracy who… you know, and how they see each other. So there’s a really interesting dichotomy going on there.

But I read it the first time, and then probably a month ago I picked it up again as an audiobook, which was really interesting because it was a completely different perspective. For me, it was easier to keep everyone together in my head. Like I had to keep notes, and it was easier to do reading the paper version, but it was really fun to listen to as an audiobook. I’ll say that it’s still as propulsive.

As I’m pulling into the driveway, I have a pretty short commute, so I was finding reasons, you know, if something really interesting was going on to drive around the neighborhood and listen for a little bit longer.

[00:17:51] ANNE: That’s a sign.

KELLY: Absolutely. Absolutely. So, you know, it’s a wild ride. I would pull into the driveway and feel like as I got out of the car, it’s like coming up for air after being underwater looking at a lot of wonderful things. So it was a great fun. I really enjoyed listening to it again and I enjoyed it just as much the second time.

ANNE: Okay, I’m noticing that you liked it so much that you revisited it for the second time.

KELLY: And that is rare for me.

ANNE: Well, reading time is precious, and so what you choose to spend time with, especially when you already know what you’re getting into, that really matters. Kelly, what is the second book you love?

KELLY: This one is Weyward by Emilia Hart. I judge a book by its cover, and this cover just spoke to me. It is filled with toadstools and butterflies and birds and ferns. It was just all the things that I love on the cover of a book. It’s super display-worthy. It’s one of those books that, like, why don’t I own this? And why isn’t it on my living room table for everyone to see?

[00:18:59] I will say this book has some sensitive subjects. Talks a lot about abuse and violence towards women, but it is ultimately a story of resilience in women. It examines the lives of three different women across multiple generations. They’re all living pretty oppressed lives in their own ways, but they ultimately rebel against those patriarchal systems and structures.

But we meet three different women. One in the 1600s who’s accused of being a witch because of her connections with nature and naturopathic healing. There’s a 1930s teenage girl who feels trapped in an old English manor during the war. And then our third protagonist is a current-day 20-something professional living in modern-day London.

So those three timelines are all kind of thread together and they wind through similar issues but very different perspectives. I really enjoyed that layered storytelling approach.

[00:20:06] Again, the characters are so beautifully written. Their connections to nature as their stories unfolded and they kind of step into their own power was just such a beautiful story in each one of them, but also kind of how they melded together to tell this cohesive story in the book.

ANNE: Kelly, what is your third book you love?

KELLY: The third book is Wintering by Katherine May. It’s called Wintering: The Power of Rest and Retreat in Difficult Times. This is a nonfiction book. For this one, timing is everything. What better mood read for the middle of a pandemic!

This book really spoke to me at a time when I needed it to. We were in the throes of starting to work from home. We were spending time outdoors. I had kind of used nature as a salve for this anxiety that we were all going through. I mean, I was downloading apps so that I could distinguish bird calls, if that gives you an idea.

[00:21:14] So this book for me was like light in a dark time. It felt very illuminating. Actually, non-fiction tends to do this for me, where I’ll learn about the thing they’re talking about in the book, but it’ll also send me down rabbit holes to read other books on different topics that are talked about.

I picked up a C.S. Lewis book because of this book, got back into reading about mythology and retellings, interested in trees and hibernation, and just this idea that life isn’t linear, it’s cyclical. You know, you look at a tree and the cycles that it goes through from winter to spring to summer to fall and just, you know, this too shall pass.

That was a wonderful thing to read in the midst of a pandemic. It’s so nice to kind of be in the spring and summer of that now, isn’t it? I think I’ve given that book to more people than I can say.

[00:22:16] ANNE: Interesting. I’m so glad you had that right book at the right time experience with this one. Also, I have it on good authority. You’re not the only one downloading that bird call app during these last four, five years.

Kelly, tell me about a book that was not right for you.

KELLY: This one was The Rabbit Hutch by Tess Gunty. From the start, this was our inaugural book club choice. We made the decision as a group. We basically looked at award-winning books and chose it kind of sight unseen. We looked at the covers of the books, and I will say this was not a book I would have chosen based on the cover. It was immediately like, Mm, I’m not sure I’m going to like this.

I would have DNF’d this book several times had it not been for the book club, because as in Enneagram 9, we have to have bylaws for the book club. And one of those rules is you must read the entire book. So I couldn’t break my own rules.

[00:23:27] But I will say that I can understand why someone might like the book. But for me, I didn’t feel kinship with any character. And I tend to like unlikable characters. So that’s saying something. I think the only person in the book that I really enjoyed was just this tiny character that was on a few pages. She was a homeless woman with a shopping cart standing outside of a store. That was the extent of the people in this book that I enjoyed.

There just wasn’t enough plot for me. It was kind of a story about a person’s life and also the story of a dying town, an industrial town that was kind of just now existing without the industry. And while there was some plot and some story, it just really didn’t hold my attention the way that I had hoped that it would. So for me, it was not one of my favorites.

[00:24:27] ANNE: I’m wondering what your expectations were going in. Because a lot of readers will find this familiar. I mean, some of you have read it, but also it won the National Book Award for fiction a couple of years ago, the Waterstones Debut Fiction Prize, which I know a lot of readers pay attention to. What were you expecting to find here?

KELLY: I had actually been in a Barnes & Noble and seen it sitting on a shelf and it said, The Next Great American Novel, and I think I went in with expectations that high. It didn’t catch my attention. I think what I expected were really well-drawn characters. In a way, I think that was true, they were well-drawn, but just not to my liking. Not people that I’d want to spend time with. And I spent a bit of time with them.

ANNE: You mentioned before that you chose your favorites because they resonated with you and really stayed with you. And I’m sensing that that’s not what you found here.

KELLY: Absolutely. That’s very true.

[00:25:30] ANNE: I want to ask you about something that you said in your submission that I’m trying to puzzle out. So, Kelly, you mentioned that you would take plot over character any day if you had to choose, but the book needs to be well-written or it languishes in your maybe-you’ll-come-back-later queue. You also mentioned that you really have a lot of patience for long descriptions of things happening in the story. I’m trying to reconcile those two things.

You specifically said A Gentleman in Moscow lost you, despite Amor Towles’ gorgeous style. And I’m just trying to get a better sense for where you have patience, and where you put the book aside, where it will languish forever in “maybe I’ll get to that one day”, which I get the feeling means “I’m done with that book”.

KELLY: Yes.

ANNE: Okay. Say more, please.

[00:26:25] KELLY: It’s interesting because I really… I don’t think you can over-describe something. But it needs to have some plot. It needs to keep pace. My husband and I greatly disagree on “you can’t over-describe something”. He wants crisp, concise, get-to-the-point stories and I love flowery language and describing the kind of windows and the curtain and what’s hanging on the wall. But yet, the plot has to keep moving.

I think it’s been described on the show before as maybe “I don’t want to just hear about someone living their life. I want to hear about them living their life doing something exciting”. I think that might be.

ANNE: Yeah. But also if you’re really over-des… okay, here’s what I’m wondering. I’m wondering if you were a big setting person.

KELLY: Yes.

[00:27:25] ANNE: You want to know about the place where the action is happening and the plot is unfolding.

KELLY: Yes, that’s absolutely true.

ANNE: The details make it real?

KELLY: Yes.

ANNE: Okay, question means theory. Okay, that is very helpful. I’ll use that going forward. Kelly, what have you been reading lately?

KELLY: Lately, I’ve read Maybe You Should Talk to Someone by Lori Gottlieb. That is a memoir about a therapist who’s exploring her own work, talking about her patients. It’s kind of an amalgam of multiple clients just put together so that she could write the book with anonymity, and also talking about her own therapy. It’s a good book. It was interesting to kind of get a look inside the walls of a counseling office. It was a fun read.

I’m also reading Bram Stoker’s Dracula, but in a really fun way. There is a substack called Dracula Daily, and you can subscribe to that. Because Dracula is written as an epistolary novel, it’s made up of diary entries, telegrams, newspaper clippings, and letters. They do it in a really fun way, because every one of those has a date. So, every part of that book is dated.

[00:28:46] What they do… it happens between May 3rd and November 10th. So, on a date that is in the book, you are sent an email with what happened on that day. So there are weeks that you go without hearing anything, and then something will pop up in your email account that says, here’s what happened today in Dracula. So it’s a really fun way to read it.

I sometimes struggle with classics, but this kind of helps me to read it in the way that it was happening. So I thought that was really interesting. But the thing I do love about a classic is that this has made me break out my dictionary on more than one occasion.

ANNE: That is unsurprising. Kelly, we talked a little bit about what you’re looking for in your reading life right now, but what else would you like me to know as we move into choosing books for you?

[00:29:39] KELLY: I think what I’m trying to do now is I’d like a mix of fiction and nonfiction. I’ll be honest, I want to start making a dent in my pile of birthday books because I’m really excited about what’s there and they’re so connected with the people who gave them to me that I want to be able to start sending out these thank you notes, which I may need to just do in lieu of actually reading the books. They can have a second “thank you” once I’ve actually read the book. Because I think part of the joy of this birthday party is I’m going to be able to now have something in common with my friends that I can talk to them about what they loved about the book too.

So I want to be sure that I am honoring these wonderful gifts but also I have a bit of a problem — I am in love with my local library and the Libby app as well. But I think bookstores and libraries are just magical places, and I visit them quite regularly. My problem, if we can call it that, is I find new and shiny things to read all the time. I can’t say that I’ve left a library without a book in my hand in recent memory.

[00:30:58] So I’m looking to get some recommendations today about not only the books that I’ve received, but also ones that I can pepper in some shiny new things. I’m not afraid of a backlist book either. I would say I’m open to any genre, which I have certainly gotten in my birthday books. I’ve gotten everything from cookbooks to poetry, nonfiction, fiction, and just so many genres, so it’s going to be lots of fun.

I will certainly not be short on opportunities to try new things. But I’m also looking for… I mean, I love the literary matchmaking. I mean, it’s why I’m here. I’d love to know what you think I might love to read next.

And maybe it’s because I’m in midlife now at 50 years old. I think it’s fair to say that I tend to appreciate characters that are, I think, misunderstood, but sometimes they’re labeled as difficult, or strange, or dark, or witches. You know, any number of things like that.

[00:32:07] I’ve been a fan of main characters from books like Yellowface, Weyward, Circe, and The Push. And I know there are people out there right now saying, “What? Those are not likable people.” So I’m hoping for some more maybe women in later or midlife, ones that are maybe not warm and fuzzy, and, you know, wouldn’t say no to an old mansion or manor, crystal ball, a witch, you know? I’m open to something a little interesting and intriguing.

ANNE: That’s helpful. Thank you for sharing that, Kelly. Let’s revisit your books real quick. The 7 1/2 Deaths of Evelyn Hardcastle by Stuart Turton, Weyward by Emilia Hart, and Wintering by Katherine May. That’s your nonfiction pick. I suspected you’d want to mix. We’ll get that for you.

Not for you was The Rabbit Hutch by Tess Gunty, and lately you’ve read Maybe You Should Talk To Someone by Lori Gottlieb and Dracula by Bram Stoker via those really interesting email installments from Dracula Daily.

[00:33:16] Your collection of 40-plus new 50th-birthday books is hovering over our conversation here, and I’m wondering if you need a new metaphor for thinking about them. You mentioned that you felt like, and I’m putting some words in your mouth here, but as a reader and as a friend, as a person, you would feel better if you could make a dent in those books. And I appreciate that. And as a reader who reads a lot for all kinds of reasons, I understand that.

Also, I’ve been flipping through metaphors in my mind, like a cabinet full of good coffee, like a wine cellar, like a bunch of really good, perhaps really expensive chocolate. But I think the metaphor I want to land on is the idea of a cabinet full of just really gorgeous, wonderful, expensive, luxurious candles that you’re almost reluctant to burn because you like the collection, and they look good, and you like knowing you could read them anytime, and they’ll be there waiting for you, they’re not going to go bad, and also you enjoy them so much more when they’re burning.

[00:34:25] You don’t need to wait to write a thank you note if somebody gives you a luxurious candle. You can write about the anticipation and the happiness it brings you to know what’s waiting there for you. Or you could even say like, You lit it just to find out what it smelled like and you’re so looking forward to the entire experience.

So those things are there for you, they’re not going bad, and yet you enjoy them in a completely different way when you’re burning them. Now, they don’t quite have the personal… or at least most candles don’t have the unique personal connection we have with a book. But I’m wondering how that tweak of language, of imagery, of relationship is landing for you right now.

KELLY: It’s perfect. I have been known to keep a beautiful candle until it’s almost unburnable. So it’s so apt.

ANNE: Where you light it and what it smells like is dust.

KELLY: Exactly.

ANNE: Not that I know that from experience. Okay, I know that from experience.

[00:35:24] KELLY: Maybe my 50s are going to be the era of using the good stuff. Let’s not save it, let’s use it.

ANNE: We have some weird candles in our cabinet. We have some whose scents are things like road trip or summer barbecue that has a hint of watermelon. I don’t know that I want a watermelon candle. But I’m still going to burn at least some of it and try and see the experience and imagine, this is not the case, but imagine why someone chose this for me.

I’m looking at your spreadsheet called Birthday Book Analysis. And listeners, I’m not going to read the whole thing, but a selection here. We have The Eyes and the Impossible by Dave Eggers. We have Remarkably Bright Creatures by Shelby Van Pelt, The Color Purple by Alice Walker, Fourth Wing by Rebecca Yarros, Tales from the Café by Toshikazu Kawaguchi. I’m wondering if you read the other books in the series and that’s how you got this one.

[00:36:27] KELLY: I have not.

ANNE: Okay. You could jump in here. I think it would be fine. The Thursday Murder Club by Richard Osman. I noticed that you got two books from two different friends. They were Murder in the Stacks by David DeKok, and I’m wondering if some friends know you have a true crime interest.

KELLY: Yeah, there are a few podcasts, so.

ANNE: I suspected as much. Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer is also a book you got twice. You were given two Brené Brown titles. You have a lot of mysteries here, a fair amount of nonfiction, some fun one-offs like the Taylor Swift coloring and activity book. I’m reminded how you said in your submission that your local bookstore knows you all too well. You told me a few things about that.

Fiction, non-fiction, some how-to books, some… Oh gosh, I almost called this a classic. But I don’t think that’s going to be unfair at The Hunt for Red October by Tom Clancy. There’s also some poetry.

You have a really lovely collection here, and I can see how maybe you’re not… There’s not an obvious order or way in. There’s just your interests and where you are right now and what you think you might want to read and how that slots into the books that you’re reading on more of a timeline for your book clubs and in a different sense on more of a timeline because you have library due dates because something new and shiny caught your eye and now you need to read it, not immediately, but soon in a way that these books that you own and are part of your personal collection they don’t have that same kind of time demand on them.

[00:37:55] KELLY: That’s right.

ANNE: I think I want to start with Braiding Sweetgrass. How does that sound to you?

KELLY: It sounds wonderful.

ANNE: Let me start by saying, actually, that I can make recommendations and you can, in your soul, go, yes. Or you can go, Oh, no, actually, I can see now that I want to (fill in the blank). Both are great. Both give you a path forward. But I plucked Braiding Sweetgrass because, well, it was given to you twice. So I feel like that means something. You could thank two friends, write two “thank you” notes if that is a path forward you’re committed to.

And the way that you spoke about nature and stories and how you can’t over-describe something and you love flowery language and also books that resonate and stay with you, I think this book could really become a part of your experience as you move through the world as a person and as someone who loves nature and like to spend time in her garden. So this is a really interesting book. It has sold a bazillion copies at this point.

[00:38:59] I was very excited to read earlier this summer that she has another book coming out this fall called… I think it’s called The Serviceberry. Many readers will be very excited to hear this.

Kimmerer has an impressive CV. She’s a botanist. She’s an educator. She’s a scholar. She’s a member of the Citizen Potawatomi Nation. And in this book, she’s showing readers how each plant and animal and ecosystem provides us with lessons and gifts, both obvious and also really not.

When you were speaking of Wintering, you said how life isn’t linear, it’s cyclical and that you also really enjoy tending to your native plant beds. I think this book has a lot here. Kimmerer said that beauty is medicine. And in this book, she wants to seduce those who don’t get that, who don’t look at our world and see wonderful, good things. That’s maybe before humans put their unique stamp on things.

[00:40:01] And so yes, she’s writing to you, and also, I think one of the reasons her book is so compelling is she is trying to woo those that she imagines will be resistant, and so she’s got to make it really extra enticing.

She talks about things like beans but she does it using stories and metaphor and symbolism. Like, she tells this almost myth about the three sisters and how they work together and they’re stronger when they’re not individual and they produce more fruit when they are working in partnership. The three sisters are corn, beans, and squash. I think you’re going to be reading this going, I had no idea corns, beans, and squash could be so interesting.

So this has folklore and lots of stories, scientific studies. She’s talking a lot about her own journey, and she’s giving us a way that we can see the world. And so many readers, and I think you’ll be one of them, come away from this book and say, like, Yeah, I see things differently now, just in my everyday life, because of this book. How does that sound?

[00:41:06] KELLY: It sounds amazing. It sounds tailor-made for what I’m looking for.

ANNE: And two of your friends knew that.

KELLY: That’s right.

ANNE: I like that. I’m a little afraid I’m going to lose you if we pivot to this next place next. But we’re going to do it, okay?

KELLY: Let’s give it a shot.

ANNE: I see that there are so many mysteries and thrillers we can choose some and so much other fiction. And then these very specific nonfiction books, you know what they’re about. Also, I want to point you, I think, towards The Essential Rumi, the new edition by Coleman Barks. It’s also available as an audiobook that is excellent.

The thing about this poetry collection is you can start it… I think it has a lot of themes that will really resonate with you as someone who I really suspect is going to thoroughly enjoy braiding Sweetgrass and as someone who really enjoyed Wintering in that it’s lyrical and soul-searching and asking big questions but illustrating those questions with very specific tangible images.

[00:42:06] I like the idea of this being on your nightstand where you could just flip it open. I also really like the idea of you perhaps seeing if you can grab this from your library on Libby for the audiobook, because some people are audio poetry people, some people would rather read the written language. But if it sounds at all appealing to you, I would really recommend giving it a try.

The thing is, though, a poetry collection in print, you can obviously dip in and out of. You can read it in any order. Just see what catches your eye on the table of contents and flip right to it. Audio lends itself more to starting in the beginning and hitting play and just taking it as it comes.

But 13th century poetry and also I think because of the themes and the tone and the mysticism and the questions, I think you’ll be surprised to feel how relevant this can feel to right now and how the themes can be so in line with some of the same ones that your books are exploring. How does that sound?

KELLY: It sounds great. I’ll tell you that some of my best reading experiences have been when I get the audiobook in companion with the print version. Sometimes you’ll hear something and it’s like I want to read that, I want to see that in print and does it resonate the same way. So I think that’ll be a wonderful opportunity. I’m excited about that.

[00:43:24] ANNE: Okay, good. I’m excited to hear it because I don’t want to lose you, Kelly. I want you to be really excited to keep seeing what’s here. And I think perhaps some of your friends brought you books that you weren’t like, you know what’s high on my TBR? And yet, I wonder if they didn’t bring them to you for a reason.

Now, you mentioned that you do love intriguing stories that feature perhaps creepy mansions, crystal balls, misunderstood people, older protagonists. I don’t have the book that delivers all those things in one tidy package, but there’s a couple books running through my brain that I think you may enjoy. One of them came out… I think it was last year. It’s by Laura Shepherd-Robinson. It’s called The Square of Sevens. Do you know this book?

KELLY: I do not.

ANNE: Okay. I saw an interview with Laura where she was asked to describe her book in five words. These are her words. “Magical, mysterious, epic, immersive, and tricksy.” How are we doing so far?

[00:44:24] KELLY: Sounds right.

ANNE: Okay. This is an 18th-century historical mystery. Laura calls this a dive into Georgian England from its glittering balls and assemblies to the rough rivalry of the London fairs. The main character is named Red and she is a young fortune teller who has a special gift that she comes by honestly because her father has taught her.

The title is The Square of Sevens. The book tries to explain this fortune-telling technique, but it involves using a tarot deck and a regular deck of playing cards that are dealt out in a very specific way. That is explained in the book. And there are also three wish cards. That’s where that comes from. Also, the book itself is laid out in a way that mirrors that technique with the chapter structure. So if you want to get nerdy about that, you really could.

But Red is this young fortune teller whose father is always on the run. He seems to be hiding from someone. He’s very dodgy about the truth of his mother’s past. And she wants to figure out, like, what is the deal with my parents? What has happened in the past that I’m trying to figure out?

[00:45:32] Laura herself says that, like, with a nod to Dickens, this young protagonist named Red discovers that her family is feuding in a well-known court case over an inheritance, and maybe it’s hers. But that’s what everyone is fighting about.

And she is using her fortune-telling skills to spy on her own family and along the way, she finds love. She has run-ins with the law. People get hurt. So this book goes way into granular detail about this 18th-century method of fortune telling. It is central to the plot.

There’s a lot of description in the spirit of setting a sense of place and establishing the atmosphere and providing historical detail. Some readers have been like, No, just give me the story, but I think you are going to enjoy those details.

[00:46:30] I can see how if you enjoy this book, which I think you could stumble upon at your library, maybe one of your librarians will catch our wavelength and just put it on an end cap for you, but this could lead you right back into your birthday book collection because one of your friends gave you a Jessica Dore book called Tarot for Change.

And then Casino Royale, if you want to continue the card theme, you could pick up there with that Ian Fleming novel that you also received. How are they sounding? What do you think, Kelly?

KELLY: I think that is a shiny thing that will send me on a path to find some other interesting books. And I love that we can kind of weave our way through a book from my library, and a book from my stack. I think it’s wonderful.

ANNE: Oh, there’s lots of weaving to be done here, and I look forward to it. I’m going to restrain myself and stop right there. Can we take a recap and see what you want to read next?

KELLY: Absolutely.

[00:47:31] ANNE: Okay. We discussed Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer, The Essential Rumi, edited by Coleman Barks, and The Square of Sevens by Laura Shepard-Robinson that then pivots you neatly back into your birthday book collection. What do you think, Kelly?

KELLY: I think that I’ll immediately put Rumi on my nightstand, but I’m so interested in both the other books. I will probably start with Braiding Sweetgrass because it seems to me the universe wants me to read this book for a number of reasons. Two of my dear friends who know me well and Ann Bogel have said this is a book I should read. So I’ll start there, but I will certainly make my way through all three of those books. They all sound really great.

ANNE: That sounds wonderful. I look forward to hearing what you think. Thanks so much for talking books with me, Kelly.

[00:48:31] KELLY: Thank you so much. This was like the cherry on top of a beautiful birthday celebration. Thank you, Anne.

ANNE: Hey readers, I hope you enjoyed my discussion with Kelly, and I’d love to hear what you think she should read next. Find Kelly on Instagram at @hellokellyd and find the full list of titles we talked about today at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

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[00:49:33] Thanks to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by Will Bogel, Holly Wielkoszewski, and Studio D Podcast Production. Readers, that’s it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, “Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading.” Happy reading, everyone.